“When you think of it the AI is just another intermediary that a marketer has at their disposal…”
Martin Waxman is a LinkedIn Learning Instructor and he is a social media and digital strategy adjunct prof.
Although his roots are in PR and the creative arts, Martin also conducts AI research. He is also the co-host of the Inside PR podcast, a past-chair of PRSA Counselors Academy, and a past-president of CPRS Toronto. Lastly, Martin is a published novelist and storyteller, the founder of three agencies, and an ex-journalist and ad copywriter.
In this episode, we talk about Martin’s professional background, how marketing has changed throughout the decades, how his AI research helps his marketing, what he recommends marketers should be learning to prepare for the future, and more.
Kenny Soto 0:00
I’m going to start recording and we’re going to count down five four. everyone, welcome to Kenny Soto’s Digital Marketing podcast. I just want to start this episode off with a note of gratitude. We have now reached 100 plays per episode, and we’re only on episode 17 of the podcast. Right now we are recording episode 18.
And I have a very special guest. Before I introduce him, I just want to also ask you the listener a question. This question is, what do you want to learn more about when it comes to digital marketing, we’ve had experts come on who have explained their process of being an agency worker moving on to being a marketing consultant. We’ve had experts talk about the creative field, graphic design, ad creation, etc.
And we’ve also had experts talk about other topics, but I want to know from you the listener, what is it that you want to learn? So you can send your response to this question on Instagram at Kenny Soto, or through my website, Kennysoto.com, forward slash contact. Now with that being said, I want to introduce our new guest. His name is Martin Waxman. Martin is a LinkedIn learning instructor and he is a social media and digital strategy Adjunct Professor based in Canada. Although his roots are in public relations and the creative arts, Martin also conducts artificial intelligence research, which are definitely going to dive into today.
He is also the co-host of the inside PR podcast, a past chair of PR S A counselors Academy and a past president of SI p Rs, Toronto. Lastly, Martin is a published novelist and storyteller, the founder of three agencies, again, three agencies, and an ex-journalist and ad copywriter. Welcome, Martin.
Martin Waxmann 2:01
Thank you, Kenny. It’s great to be here. And congratulations on getting those views. You know, it’s hard to build an audience and it takes time. And it’s something that I think a lot of people in social and digital marketing don’t realize it’s like, yeah, it’s tough to go viral. Unless you make a really bad dumb mistake. Okay, you go file, but it’s a slow bill like relationships.
Kenny Soto 2:27
Yep. And I find that, at first, the goal was to get as many downloads as possible, as many scribe subscribers as possible on all platforms. But I’ve learned personally with this podcast, that so long as you’re reaching one person, there’s value, you’re creating something that people care about, so long as there’s one listener.
And that’s the goal of this podcast is to slowly build a library of information that’s completely customized, to help any digital marketer in the industry, learn how to just get better skills and general career development, so that they can basically benefit from anything that we talked about here. So I wanted to first get more context, about your professional career, and to set the stage for the listener. So could you tell us more about your introduction into marketing, how you enter the industry, and we can go from there?
Martin Waxmann 3:30
Yeah, I’m happy. I’m happy to do that. And I think I did my career in not necessarily the right order, certainly not a linear order. And I think that’s probably not a bad lesson for all of us. Because we can do different things in different orders. And you draw from all these various experiences. So I started out, I wanted to be a writer, fiction writer, and I actually published a couple of books.
And that was great. But you know, it’s hard to make money at that. And I did TV writing for a while, the show I was working on was canceled. This is as I was about to become a father for the second time. It’s like, okay, I need to figure out something that I can do. And that’s how I got into PR, really publicity and kind of marketing and that’s where that journey began.
But again, it’s lots of spikes. And looking back now, and I’m considerably older than you, I it might where I am make sense from where I started, but I could have never predicted and I think that’s a really good advice for anyone starting out in digital marketing or in digital communications. And that is the pathway isn’t necessarily as direct as it once might have been. So for example, you know, I just, I’d been teaching part time since 2009-2010.
Social media courses or digital marketing Horses, but I didn’t start my master’s degree till 2016 finish it in 2019. And so, you know, again, something you may have thought you would do traditionally, early on, I did later, but I loved it, it was the greatest gift I could give to myself. And I think it just underscores the importance of life learning. So that’s a little bit about who I am. And I am based in Toronto, Canada.
Kenny Soto 5:26
And can you give us more context on what you’re doing now? I briefly mentioned that your LinkedIn learning instructor, can you give more context on that and your other work?
Martin Waxmann 5:37
Yeah, so I’ve kind of morphed like my most recent incarnation of who I am. And what I do is that I, I provide digital and social media training and seminars or digital communication strategy to clients. I teach social media and digital marketing at a number of post secondary institutions. So I’m currently teaching two digital marketing strategy courses at the Schulich School of Business Master marketing program in Toronto.
And then I also developed these courses for LinkedIn learning, primarily on digital marketing and social media. So one, one of the courses that you know, your listeners may be interested in is called Digital Marketing Trends. It’s actually a series. And so every two weeks, there’s a new short video about a trend that marketers might be interested in, and how it might affect their business. So that’s one thing I do.
And then one of the things that for any of your listeners, LinkedIn learning is subscriber based, so you need to pay for it. But what LinkedIn did is they provided a number of their learning paths. So that’s collections of certificates for free to people. And so you can actually get a digital marketing certificate from LinkedIn for free right now, just by going to the site, and I’ll share the link with you. And then you can share it with your listeners.
So that’s a fantastic resource. When I was doing my master’s degree, well, I’ve been interested in artificial intelligence for a while one kind of seems like a natural progression from social media. But I, in my master’s degree, I started to do some research on it, and not necessarily research from the coding side, because they don’t code.
And I think that’s a limitation for my for myself, I also don’t have a background in math or statistics, another limitation. But I’m trying to look at AI, and the intersection of human and AI agent relationships, which is really key to marketing. Because when you think of it, the AI is just another intermediary that a marketer has at their disposal in the past, it was media or social media. Now, let’s say a chatbot.
And how does the interaction that a human might have with a chatbot affect the relation their relationship with a brand, or an organization, and also the way that we communicate with the Chatbot, but also with other people? So that’s kind of a quick summary of what I’m doing.
Kenny Soto 8:17
Perfect. And I definitely want to get a better understanding of your personal experience teaching marketing in 2020. So what would you say are like key highlights from that experience? And what do you think may be missing from the experience from your own personal perspective?
Martin Waxmann 8:42
Oh, that’s great. That’s a really good question. Well, I’ll tell you what I miss right now. That’s, of course different because of COVID is the face to face interaction with students. So all my teaching is online on Zoom, which is, I think, and I have no shares in zoom, you know, but I think it’s the best platform so far, because it kind of mirrors what a classroom interaction might look like, when you have the Brady Bunch you are that you know that. Yeah, that’s where you can see everyone and that’s really good.
And so that that’s a challenge I missed the face to face. I think, having taught face to face having taught someone online only courses, other ones that are synchronous, like live webinars, which is what the one I’m teaching now. Is are the ones I’m teaching now are sorry, I find we need to learn to be comfortable on video.
And that’s something not everyone is because you know, COVID has really accelerated our use of video to communicate. So you think of it after everything goes back to normal and hopefully it will sooner rather than later and we’re We’re all doing the things we want to do going places, hugging our friends, our family, and our loved ones and just kind of hanging out with people, there will still likely be more of a digital interaction.
So like, do I need to go to as many conferences to learn things? Or can some of those conferences have maybe a hybrid option? In person and online? Same thing with education? Should education continue to be only in person? Or would a hybrid option be better? So those are all things that we have to think about, we don’t know exactly where it’s going, I think we need to open our minds. So that’s one of the limitations, you know, not having any face to face with students.
One of the great things is, every time I teach, and it’s not me, who says this, I think anyone who’s who’s a good instructor realize his teaching is two way, I don’t know everything, I can never know everything. And I learn as much, hopefully from the students as as they learn from me. And it really is a two way experience.
You can’t just sit there and say, I’m right. I’m just going to tell you all this stuff. It’s a dialog, I present things that I’ve researched. But other people have different examples. Sometimes they might challenge me, that’s great. Sometimes they might agree, or they might want more clarification, or they have other things to add. That’s fantastic.
Because it makes it a much more dynamic experience. Certainly you see that in class, online, that is more of a challenge. But when you do use Zoom, at least, it’s closer to that. And of course, the challenge with digital marketing or marketing in general is Oh, my gosh, what worked last month doesn’t work anymore, or something changed, or platforms changed, or they there’s a new platform, TikTok really popular TikToks being banned, you know, in India and Pakistan.
So how do organizations and and practitioners deal with that, but I think that, you know, comes back to the notion of being that lifelong learner always being open to change. I say this in one of my digital LinkedIn learning courses. And that is, there was a time when I thought I knew how to do PR, like I actually have a client called me with a problem, like in my mind, it’s like I can solve this problem.
I know I can. Now I have no idea. And that’s that’s a good thing. Doesn’t mean I’m stupid, but I may be. But it means that we need to know that the problem is there, you have to approach it from so many different angles. And knowing that, yeah, I know how to do certain things. But how can I test out other possibilities, and come up with the best strategy for an organization? And that’s the approach I take to teaching too. It’s like, what can what do we all need to learn? And how can we do that together?
Kenny Soto 13:06
I liked that you asked that question? What do we all need to learn? So that that’s my next question. My next question is, from what you’ve seen so far, and definitely take your time answering this. What do you think the modern day digital marketer needs to know to not only thrive as a practitioner in 2020, but also thrive as a practitioner after COVID-19 hopefully ends.
And as we move on to this new decade, where we’re not going to be able to predict the next TikTok, Snapchat, Twitter or LinkedIn. And we have to somehow some ways, stay abreast and up to date with all of the changes in the digital marketing space. So if, if I were a 17 year old freshman at any university, and I’ve, I’m considering digital marketing as a career, what would you say? And this can just be the basic principles of marketing, but what would you say, are like the essential things that I need to know so that I can be successful in my career?
Martin Waxmann 14:14
Well, I think you hit it right on the nose with the idea of the essential. Really going back to marketing essentials, and marketing theory and communications theory and relationship theory, like understanding the theories, understanding behavioral economics and why we make the decisions we make, you know, the psychology of people how our emotions play into so many of our decisions, how our biases play into so many of our decisions and how we can learn to identify and overcome our biases. I think that’s really, really important.
We can’t forget that. We can’t forget the foundation of where we came from. Because a lot of those things that mean strategy is old, like, it’s not new. So we need to understand, you know, where it came from, and then how it’s evolved. So that’s the first pillar really. Second pillar is just what’s going on around us, and testing out things and knowing that, I mean, I like to say that everything I do is in beta, you know, I’m always testing and kind of iterating and trying to figure out, okay, how is this working? And that underscores the importance of data in and measurement and metrics and, and approaching things almost from a scientists mindset, which something that a lot of marketers don’t do, I mean, and marketing, what I like what I love about it, marketing, communications, it’s really a combination of science in the arts, or it should be science and the arts.
And there’s not necessarily one or the other. It’s, it’s a fantastic hybrid amalgam. So I think that’s one thing. I also think that and here’s where academia hasn’t caught up, you know, because academic institutions, you know, yes, social media is there, but it, they lacked, you know, social media was being practiced, but you know, organized, academic institutions weren’t necessarily teaching it or adapting at the pace, I think they’ve certainly adapted to that, and to digital.
But AI is here and very few digital marketing programs from, from what I’ve seen, are offering courses in artificial intelligence for marketers, and communicators, data science for marketers, and communicators. So, yeah, you need to understand the language of business, you need to understand the language of psychology and how you know your customers behave.
But you also need to understand the language of data, and data science and statistics, and what AI is in does in order to make informed decisions and ask questions about, okay, what are the biases involved in this data set? How is an organization protecting data? What about privacy involved? involved in that? And how are we protecting consumer privacy? All of these things? Do we have permission to start a relationship with people and with AI there, it gets even more complex because algorithms come into play.
And we don’t necessarily know why it’s making the decisions that, you know, AI is. And so we need to ask ourselves those questions and really educate ourselves on that. And then and if you’re an undergrad, or grad student, and you’re not getting that you need to find out how you can educate yourself in it. And some of it might be reading. Some of it might be attending workshops or seminars signing up for AI courses.
And asking lots and lots and lots of questions, and not ever getting complacent. That’s hard to do. Because, you know, as we get more experience, it’s easy to get complacent, we can’t do that. We have to always try to put ourselves into a risky situation. And by that I don’t mean, you know, standing on the ledge and kind of going, Oh, what do I do here? I mean, but challenging ourselves all the time and not thinking that okay, I know what I know. And that’s all all I need. Hopefully that answered your question.
Kenny Soto 18:20
Yeah. And I have a follow up before we go into the topic of artificial intelligence, which is, do you recommend the route of basically starting your career as a generalist? Or do you believe that specializing in a particular field of digital marketing is where advantages are created?
Martin Waxmann 18:43
I think, and I’m only one person here, and there’s so many different, you know, perspectives on this. I think it’s good to get as much experience as you can. When I say to students, you know, they’ll say to me, shouldn I Should I start in an agency? I don’t know, if I want to start in an agency. Should I start in corporate? Should I get a government job and I say, you know, it doesn’t matter.
What you do, just get as much experience doing as many things as you can continue to learn different things. I mean, I went from entertainment, doing entertainment, to doing entertainment, publicity, to corporate communications, and marketing to teach a license, all these different things. And honestly, all of the knowledge that you have is transferable.
A lot of companies may not want that. And I find that with international students. It’s it’s a barrier that they face, you know, they might have experienced it in India. They come to Canada and they go to employers and the employer will say, Well, you don’t have Canadian experience, so what? you know, really, the principles are the same. Yeah, you need to get up to speed on who the major players are in the country. What that trends the local trends are takes a little bit of time, but experience is experience.
And I think the more experience and the broader experience you get is great. I mean, you could come from a science background, you know, biology and move into marketing, that’s fantastic. You can come from the arts, you can come from math, you can come from humanity, psychology, whatever it is, you bring all this together.
And it makes for a much more interesting recipe, when you have diverse experiences, diverse backgrounds, and people who are bringing their own lives to it, because you know, what? The audience that we’re trying to reach, they’re not demographics, they’re people. People are different. And I don’t know exactly what you’re thinking, you don’t know exactly what I’m thinking. But hopefully, we can come to an understanding and achieve a common ground.
And you do that through dialogue and relationships. And so lots of experience, I think is fantastic. And don’t tell anyone that can’t be transferred.
Kenny Soto 21:00
This is certainly true. And I’m glad you mentioned the word demographics, because before we jump into your experience, researching artificial intelligence, and getting more context on that, in terms of digital marketing, I wanted to read a quote that I found from one of your slideshows that’s on LinkedIn. Yeah, and the quote it’s just, it’s just three words; intent, Trump’s demographics. can you? Can you elaborate on that?
Martin Waxmann 21:31
Yes, yes, I wish I thought of that myself. This is something that has to do with mobile communications, it actually is something called micro-moments. And what micro-moments are Google is the organization that came up with as micro-moments are those moments of intense, so like, we’re in the middle of one thing.
And we have this desire to find something out. And so what we do is we pick up our smartphones, and we search. So right now my smartphone is down, I’m actually paying attention, but in many of the things we do, you know, we have these microphones, oh, yeah, I want to travel somewhere, or I want to find this out, or I want to do something. And so organizations need to pay attention to the fact that that’s how people are kind of living our lives. That’s how we’re living our lives.
You know, our attention is kind of split, among many things, that’s good and bad, probably like, we also need to learn to have some sort of focus. Otherwise, you know, we’ll never accomplish anything. But knowing that what happens is, if, if you’re looking for a vacation, right, you have an idea. You want to travel on a great vacation somewhere, well, you might spend a lot of time researching that.
And you’ll research different brands and check things out. And maybe there’s a travel company that you’ve had an experience with, they have a good price and good timing. And so you go okay, that’s great. I’m loyal to this brand. I trust them, I’m gonna go there. So that that’s one intent. But what happens if you’re traveling on business, you have a connecting flight, it’s 10pm first flight that arrived late, and all of a sudden, you’ve missed your connection, you’re stuck at the airport, but you don’t want to sleep at the airport, you need to find a hotel, where you don’t care that you have loyalty points, all you want is a place It’s nearby, clean, decent, good and available.
And she’ll type that into your phone. That’s another moment of intent. And what comes up, if it looks halfway decent, you’ll go okay, I’m gonna call them or find out if there’s a room because I just want to sleep or get something to eat. So marketers need to understand that it’s not only our loyal customers, it might be people who are in a situation when they need us. And that affects the type of content that we create.
Kenny Soto 23:59
Perfect. And now I think we’re at the perfect moment where we can talk about artificial intelligence. So can you give us an idea for more context on, First, let’s start off here. Why did you decide to do artificial intelligence research? And how does artificial intelligence affect marketing today?
Martin Waxmann 24:26
Okay, again, really good questions. You’re making me think here. I like that. We got interested in it because it felt like aI was sort of the next development after social and digital media, like it sort of feels like it. It’s where we’re going. And sometimes I think my attention span might not be as good as it should be.
So it’s like Oh, something new I better find out about it. And you know, so my curiosity kicks in nice started to read about it in an ad hoc way, I certainly didn’t understand a lot of what I was reading, I tried to look it up at, you know, you hear algorithms that are like named recurrent neural networks, you know, I try to get a definition, I still don’t say you know what, 100%, but I have a better understanding of what that is, and how that’s different, say from a generative adversarial network, in terms of, you know, what the what goal state accomplish so, so that was one thing.
And then when I went back to my master’s program, the head of the program, who happens to be a friend of mine, who is what happens when you go back to school, when you’re my age, you know, the profs personally. And oftentimes, you’ve worked with them. And so your situation and with professors that you you work with, maybe you’re friends with him or colleagues, in a couple of cases, there are people I hired when I had my agency, because I learned research from the guy who heads up a research company I hired now he’s marking me, oh, how do I deal with this? Anyway, That’s a slight aside.
But what that did is, that gave me the opportunity to ask questions. So in my research class, we had to do some research. And I wanted to find out about people’s perceptions on chatbots. So it gave me an ability to do that in a safe environment. And then as I started to read more about communications theory about behavioral economics, I started to get interested in the idea of AI as another intermediary, between an organization and the people, it’s trying to reach customers, other stakeholders, whatever you want to call them.
And so I was able to start doing some research on that, again, knowing that I don’t code that’s a limitation. I don’t have a statistical background, that’s a limitation. But I do hopefully, understand the nature of relationships, or at least I’m trying to, and so how do we feel when we’re looking when we’re, you know, talking to a chatbot? Is it just transactional? Because if it’s just transactional, you know, it’s like, there’s nothing deep there. It’s like I’m there for information, I get my information I go.
But if the Chatbot starts to understand me and sort of engage me in a conversation or a dialogue, same way, the best customer service people do, you know, you have some that are just completely transactional, and some that are like transactional on a negative perspective. So you don’t even get the help you need.
You’re just answering these questions. And yet you have others that seem to grasp what issue or what problem you might have with their company or service or product, and can help you solve it. And that’s great. And so you’ve come away thinking, wow, that company that was really good that one person may be experienced, and I halo that onto the organization.
So now, I have a better perception of them. And maybe I’ll give them more of my business comes down to trust, right, who we trust, what their reputation is, they helped me that’s really great. You know, and that. So I thought, How does AI come into play with that? And so what I did was very, very, like formative research.
So early research on the nature of the human AI agent relationship and how it affects communications interest. And what I did was I interviewed 11 or 12 people, they were all experts in their field. So I interviewed computer scientists who were working on AI, I interviewed digital marketers, journalists who were writing about AI.
Kenny Soto 28:49
And I want to pause really quickly, can you get specific names? If the listeners wanted to do their own research on their work?
Martin Waxmann 28:58
No, but I can give you my capstone, where are they.
Kenny Soto 29:01
Okay, okay. So sorry to interrupt you, we’re talking about how you were interviewing all these people with the purpose of what exactly?
Martin Waxmann 29:12
Oh, so I wanted to find out what they thought a human AI agent relationship might be an ideal one. So again, just as a starting point, and what was really interesting is that and what I can do is and it is humblebrag here, okay, so my thesis one, the best master’s thesis award from the Institute for Public Relations.
So that’s an award they give every year to schools across North America. And so I can give you a link for anyone who’s who might be interested in reading it and getting in depth on it because it’s a public and available link on the Institute for Public Relations website.
But what what’s For me, and this was really fascinating is without prompting every single person I interviewed and again, you know, there were entrepreneurs, journalists, computer scientist, digital marketing or digital communication strategists. They all mentioned the movie her, do you know the movie her?
Kenny Soto 30:20
Yes, I love that movie. And I truly do believe that there some version of her will be available in all of our pockets eventually.
Martin Waxmann 30:28
Yeah. And so every single one of them mentioned that when I said, Can you describe the ideal human AI agent relationship? I mean, they all talked about and I thought, wow, that’s interesting. So I asked them to probe a little more deeply on that. And a couple of them said that the smartphone is something that we’re already using, we’re already comfortable with that.
So it’s, it won’t take too many more steps to make this more of a two way conversation. And in fact, it one person said, they called it the gateway to human AI relationships. I thought that was great way of looking at it. I think that’s really true. In one of the expressions in sciences, we have a transactive brain. And our transactive brain was really our collective brain.
So in the past, like, you know, we’d all have friends, we had a question maybe about, say, someone who was in a movie, and one friend we know, was a movie buff, and they knew everything about movies. So we’d ask them that question, they’d have the answer. Or maybe we knew someone who was a real foodie, and they’d have a recipe, an answer to a recipe. Question. Our transactive brains now are being outsourced to our phones.
And so like, we’re asking these questions, that’s part of our collective experience, you know, you want to know who an actor is. Name and an actor. Okay, I’m gonna type it in. And, you know, that becomes part of our consciousness. So it’s not, we’re not too far away from Ai, being like the, you know, the Scarlett Johansson character in her. But AI is not smart enough yet. And that’s something that we need to understand what AI is limitations are.
Kenny Soto 32:16
Now, I want to finish this podcast on an actionable note where the listeners can take something away, and implement it into their own digital marketing strategies. And normally, in most cases, I would ask for, like marketing news or business news that somebody should be aware of.
But in this particular case, what I want to know from you, Martin, is what questions should we be thinking about when it comes to artificial intelligence? Because it’s very early, And I don’t think the answers are clear. But I do believe that there, there are at least a list of four to five questions that every organization, and every marketer in particular should be thinking about when it comes to artificial intelligence. So what do you think those questions are?
Martin Waxmann 33:08
Well, I think the first question is, what is a AI? And what does it do right now because we don’t understand it. In fact, there’s so much misinformation around it, there’s so much hype around it, there’s so much fear and paranoia, some of that is justified. But just to say, there’s really three different types of AI, there’s narrow AI, which is what we have now, and it’s really, really good, but it’s good at doing one thing. So if you think about that, digital voice assistants are really good at answering specific questions, but they can’t build an airplane, for example, or tell you how to build a self driving car.
Netflix recommends movies to you, it’s great recommendation engine for its products. But you can’t go to netflix recommendation agent and say, Tell me an example of great literature, you know, it would only give you something from its database. So it’s very, very narrow can only do one thing and that’s what we have now. Now, those one things can be really, really good and effective. Ai chatbots.
For example, when they are more human sounding or more conversational, but doesn’t understand us or our context. We most people tend to think of AI as artificial general intelligence because that’s what we see in movies, her, Arnold Schwarzenegger in The Terminator, you know, kind of scary things Westworld on TV, the AI is a lot more like us can generalize. We’re not there yet. We’re heading in that direction.
It seems like but we’re not there. And so we have to make sure that we don’t confuse what we have now which is narrow AI very specific, still really good, potentially in still lots of risks associated with it with general AI. So educate yourself that’s first thing on what it is and does and then ask the Doing that we can start to ask those questions, those big ethical questions is what we’re doing okay? Or is it not okay? And why is it not? Okay? What biases are in these algorithms? Because humans are biased, we write the algorithms. So there’s bias there. There’s bias in datasets, because we’re using these training datasets, say, based on people in North America, for example, well, you know, what, people who live in Asia or in Europe or in, you know, Africa or South America, they’re different.
And so they may behave differently. And so it wouldn’t necessarily apply to them. We’re making assumptions that aren’t necessarily true. So we need to ask difficult questions, and educate ourselves on it. And if I can suggest a book that marketers may want to, it’s a really great book, it’s called, you look like a thing, And I Love You by Chanel Jade. And she’s a data scientist, she runs a blog called AI weirdness where she teaches AI to come up with like weird ice cream flavors.
And often her the results are hilarious, bizarre and a little creepy sometimes. But she explains AI using examples that anyone can understand one of the best books on that in terms of explaining and just reading that you’ll have an idea of what AI is, what it does, what the algorithms can do, which algorithms do what you know, help predict which decisions. So I think that’s my advice, knowing that we have to wrap up.
Kenny Soto 36:37
Thank you so much, Martin. And if people wanted to know where can they find you online? Where can they find you?
Martin Waxman 36:45
Well, they can find me in a bunch of different places on Twitter. I’m pretty active at Martin Waxman, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. If you do. And this I would say to do with any connection, something you did really well, Kenny and send a personal note, you heard me on this podcast on Kenny’s podcast.
Do I want to connect to somebody as simple as that to give you know a little bit of context and start the relationship. I also have a LinkedIn learning newsletter on digital marketing trends that anyone can subscribe to. And you can check out my site, Martinwaxmann.com.
Kenny Soto 37:17
Thank you so much, Martin. For the listeners. I’ll be adding all those links and more to the show notes. We definitely are appreciative of your time, Martin, and thank you for your expertise to the listener again, we want to hear from you.
So definitely contact us at Kennysoto.com forward slash contact or at Kenny Soto. On Instagram. We want to know what topics do you want to learn when it comes to digital marketing. Again, this is Kenny Soto. You have just heard an episode with Martin Waxman and we are going to sign off thanks again.